the discussion out, but if you would rather have done, no matter;—let us make an end of it. _Gor._ I should say, Socrates, that I am quite the man whom you indicate; but, perhaps, we ought to consider the audience, for, before you came, I had already given a long exhibition, and if we proceed the argument may run on to a great length. And therefore I think that we should consider whether we may not be detaining some part of the company when they are wanting to do something else. [Sidenote: Delight of the audience at the prospect of an argument.] _Chaer._ You hear the audience cheering, Gorgias and Socrates, which shows their desire to listen to you; and for myself, Heaven forbid that I should have any business on hand which would take me away from a discussion so interesting and so ably maintained. _Cal._ By the gods, Chaerephon, although I have been present at many discussions, I doubt whether I was ever so much delighted before, and therefore if you go on discoursing all day I shall be the better pleased. _Soc._ I may truly say, Callicles, that I am willing, if Gorgias is. [Sidenote: _The rhetorician need only know appearance._] _Gor._ After all this, Socrates, I should be disgraced if I refused, especially as I have promised to answer all comers; in accordance with the wishes of the company, then, do you begin, and ask of me any question which you like. _Soc._ Let me tell you then, Gorgias, what surprises me in your words; though I dare say that you may be right, and I may have misunderstood your meaning. You say that you can make any man, who will learn of you, a rhetorician? _Gor._ Yes. _Soc._ Do you mean that you will teach him to gain the ears of the multitude on any subject, and this not by instruction but by persuasion? 459 _Gor._ Quite so. [Sidenote: The rhetorician has greater powers of persuasion with the mob than e. g. the physician.] _Soc._ You were saying, in fact, that the rhetorician will have greater powers of persuasion than the physician even in a matter of health? _Gor._ Yes, with the multitude,—that is. _Soc._ You mean to say, with the ignorant; for with those who know he cannot be supposed to have greater powers of persuasion. _Gor._ Very true. [Sidenote: The more ignorant therefore will have more power than he who knows.] _Soc._ But if he is to have more power of persuasion than the physician, he will have greater power than he who knows? _Gor._ Certainly. _Soc._ Although he is not a physician:—is he? _Gor._ No. _Soc._ And he who is not a physician must, obviously, be ignorant of what the physician knows. _Gor._ Clearly.