SOCRATES: Not, surely, over horses? ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. SOCRATES: But over men? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: When they are sick? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: Or on a voyage? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: Or reaping the harvest? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: When they are doing something or nothing? ALCIBIADES: When they are doing something, I should say. SOCRATES: I wish that you would explain to me what this something is. ALCIBIADES: When they are having dealings with one another, and using one another's services, as we citizens do in our daily life. SOCRATES: Those of whom you speak are ruling over men who are using the services of other men? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: Are they ruling over the signal-men who give the time to the rowers? ALCIBIADES: No; they are not. SOCRATES: That would be the office of the pilot? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: But, perhaps you mean that they rule over flute-players, who lead the singers and use the services of the dancers? ALCIBIADES: Certainly not. SOCRATES: That would be the business of the teacher of the chorus? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: Then what is the meaning of being able to rule over men who use other men? ALCIBIADES: I mean that they rule over men who have common rights of citizenship, and dealings with one another. SOCRATES: And what sort of an art is this? Suppose that I ask you again, as I did just now, What art makes men know how to rule over their fellow-sailors,--how would you answer? ALCIBIADES: The art of the pilot. SOCRATES: And, if I may recur to another old instance, what art enables them to rule over their fellow-singers? ALCIBIADES: The art of the teacher of the chorus, which you were just now mentioning. SOCRATES: And what do you call the art of fellow-citizens? ALCIBIADES: I should say, good counsel, Socrates. SOCRATES: And is the art of the pilot evil counsel? ALCIBIADES: No. SOCRATES: But good counsel? ALCIBIADES: Yes, that is what I should say,--good counsel, of which the aim is the preservation of the voyagers. SOCRATES: True. And what is the aim of that other good counsel of which you speak? ALCIBIADES: The aim is the better order and preservation of the city. SOCRATES: And what is that of which the absence or presence improves and preserves the order of the city? Suppose you were to ask me, what is that of which the presence or absence improves or preserves the order of the body? I should reply, the presence of health and the absence of disease. You would say the same? ALCIBIADES: Yes. SOCRATES: And if you were to ask me the same question about the eyes, I should reply in the same way, 'the presence of sight and the absence of blindness;' or about the ears, I should reply, that they were improved and were in better case, when deafness was absent, and hearing was present in them. ALCIBIADES: True. SOCRATES: And what would you say of a state? What is that by the presence or absence of which the state is improved and better managed and ordered?