Mr. FURNESS. The only way that has been brought before us publishers is this: That when they have asked for a public performance, or probably to rent the orchestral part, then we have asked them, "Have you got the score yet?" They may reply, "Yes; we have rented the score," from such and such a man. Then we refuse to give them permission to render the public performance; we say to them, "You must buy the books from the publishers--the owner of the copyright or his authorized agent, the music dealer." So far as an individual goes, and so far as a society goes, we have never brought any suit at all, and the only suit that has been brought on a question of this kind emanates from Mr. Tams, who brings a suit for $200,000 against the music publishers for trying to restrain him from renting these books for public performances. The CHAIRMAN. The committee does not get a clear idea of what the law is from your statement of it. My understanding of that law is this: That so far as the civil remedy is concerned it makes no difference at all whether the performance is given for profit or not. You can sue them and recover damages, no matter whether it is given for profit or not; but it must be given for profit in order to subject them to the criminal remedies. Mr. SERVEN. Yes; that is it, willfully and for profit. The CHAIRMAN. So far as the civil remedy is concerned, it makes no difference. Mr. BONYNGE. As far as I understand, there has been no prosecution under the penal clause. Mr. SERVEN. So far there has not; no. Mr. BONYNGE. And the only use of the penal clause so far has been that it has been a sort of a club to enforce damages. Mr. SERVEN. No; no action has been taken under that; it has simply been held there, and we have sent broadcast such notices as this which you have in your record, notice to people who were in the habit of violating that section, telling them that we might at some time be compelled to proceed under that section. Mr. CHANEY. That is, you have threatened them with that penalty. Mr. SERVEN. If that is the proper word; we have given them specific notice that there is a law and that they have been violating it, and that we do not want them to violate it. Mr. BONYNGE. As a matter of good legislation, do you think we ought to have a criminal procedure of that kind where the ordinary person would not conceive that he was guilty of a crime? Mr. SERVEN. The ordinary person, who is not a musician, who does not play in any musical society, would not pick that up; but not one person in a million is attempting to perform such a production without associating with himself many persons who are familiar with the law. Mr. BONYNGE. My friend Mr. Chaney says he is a singer. Until this matter was called to his attention it is not at all unlikely that he would rent such a book and sing it, together with other singers, at an entertainment given for charity, and according to this he would be guilty of a crime.