A milder and better reasoned form of the theory was set forth by Karl J. Rodbertus.[232] Professor Wagner calls him, "the first, the most original, and the boldest representative of scientific Socialism in Germany." Yet, as Menger points out, Rodbertus derived many of his doctrines from Proudhon and the Saint-Simonians. He admitted that in a capitalist society the value of commodities does not always correspond to the labour embodied in them, and that different kinds of labour are productive in different degrees. Therefore, he had recourse to the concept of a normal, or average, day's labour in any group, and would have the various members of the group remunerated with reference to this standard. This was to be brought about by a centralised organisation of industry in which the whole product would ultimately go to labour, and the share of the individual worker would be determined by his contribution of socially necessary labour. Although Karl Marx adopted and formulated in his own terms the theory that value is determined by labour, he did not thence deduce the conclusion that labour has a right to the whole product.[233] Being a materialist, he consistently rejected conceptions of abstract justice or injustice, rights or wrongs. In opposition to the methods of his predecessors, he endeavoured to discover the historical and positive forces which determined the actual distribution, and to derive therefrom the laws that were necessarily preparing the way for a new social order. While he contended that rent receivers and interest receivers appropriated the surplus value created by labour, he refrained from stigmatising this process as morally wrong. It was merely a necessary element of the capitalist system. To call it unjust was in Marx' view to use language without meaning. As well might one speak of the injustice of a hurricane or an avalanche. Not the preaching of abstract justice, but the inevitable transformation of the capitalist into the collectivist organisation of industry, would enable labour to obtain its full product. Nevertheless, it is probably true that a majority of the followers of Marx have drawn from his labour theory of value the inference that all the value of the product belongs by a moral right to the labourer. So deeply fixed in the human conscience is the conception of justice, and so general is the conviction of the labourer's right to his product, that most Socialists have not been able to maintain a position of consistent economic materialism. Indeed, Marx himself did not always succeed in evading the influence and the terminology of idealistic conceptions. He frequently thought and spoke of the Socialist régime as not only inevitable but as morally right, and of the capitalist system as morally wrong. Despite his rigid, materialistic theorising, his writings abound in passionate denunciation of existing industrial evils, and in many sorts of "unscientific" ethical judgments.[234]