I think later there were some dissensions and shoot-offs and smaller groups organized but I mean I had no official connection with the pension union. Pennock, who was the president of the Pension Union, was also Democratic representative from the 35th Legislative District. He was the chairman of what we called the delegates from that district to the King County Democratic Central Committee. He was, I think, a chairman or member of the rules committee on the Democratic side in the State legislature. Mr. TAVENNER. That is William Pennock? Mr. O’CONNELL. That is William Pennock. In his activity as a Democrat or member of the Democratic organization as executive secretary of the Democratic Party, I naturally saw Pennock and naturally he was involved. Mr. TAVENNER. Was he one of the Smith Act defendants in the State of Washington? Mr. O’CONNELL. As I am informed, he was. Mr. TAVENNER. And was convicted. Mr. O’CONNELL. I don’t think so. He died. Mr. TAVENNER. I believe that is true. Mr. O’CONNELL. As I understand it, he either committed suicide or was found dead. Mr. TAVENNER. During the period of the trial. Mr. O’CONNELL. While the trial was in progress, yes. Mr. TAVENNER. Did you know William Pennock to be a member of the Communist Party? Mr. O’CONNELL. No, I did not. As I understand, he never divulged his membership in the Communist Party until a few days before the Smith Act trial and I think he made a public statement at that time. I, by that time, was back in the State of Montana some 4 or 5 years. Mr. TAVENNER. I would like to continue to present the testimony of Mrs. Hartle regarding the Washington Pension Union to make plain a few facts. Mrs. Hartle further testified: My knowledge of the membership of the pension union is that it was reported by William J. Pennock and others in meetings that it had about 10,000 members. She further testified: The membership of the Communist Party in the organization was small, smaller than in most so-called mass organization work. This was considered by the district leadership of the Communist Party and by the national leadership as well as being evidence of very successful mass work, and it was often used as an example of successful Communist mass work where it didn’t take so many Communists in order to influence a large number of people. Were you aware of the influence that was brought to bear by the Communist Party upon this organization, the Washington Pension Union? Mr. O’CONNELL. No, sir; I certainly wasn’t aware of it. Mr. TAVENNER. Do you know of any issues that were brought to the Washington Pension Union by the Communist Party as testified to by Mrs. Hartle? Mr. O’CONNELL. No, sir; I don’t. Mr. TAVENNER. You have told us that you spoke on numerous occasions at meetings of the pension union.