JOHN: Gwen; an epileptic woman in a slum can have twelve children by a confirmed drunkard. Which is worse? That; or this baby of Rosie’s? But as long as it’s in “holy matrimony,” people can have dozens of children with no earthly chance of looking after them--and your moralists make no objection; but they’ll torture young Rosie till she thinks of suicide.... The whole question of children--I’m sure it’s a matter of _clear thinking_. It’s so damned important we should think clearly.... Love between two people is a personal relationship. GWEN: Yes. JOHN: I can’t see that anybody has a right to interfere. GWEN: No. JOHN: But as soon as you have a child, it’s more than personal; it’s a social relationship. GWEN: Yes. JOHN: And the Law oughtn’t to be concerned with the personal side of it at all; but with the social--with the obligations to the children. GWEN: Yes.... What would you do about children in your trial marriages? JOHN: There oughtn’t to be any; not until they’ve set out to be permanent. [_Up to this point the talk has been quiet; they have been helping themselves, and each other, to their teas._ [_Now, JOHN is impelled from within to move. His own convictions, with the sense of a world in opposition, trouble him; his sentences jerk out: all underlined, as it were._ JOHN: But it’s just because as many permanent happy marriages as possible seems the best way it’s so damned important for people to make a good choice ... with full knowledge ... and so, with a real hope of being lasting and happy; and to help them _out_ when they’ve made a mistake ... it wouldn’t be so difficult if people would be open-minded and sane about it ... people just point out difficulties and dangers, and think they’ve smashed our case ... of course there’d be difficulties and unhappiness; love’s not simple ... but look at it all _now_. That’s what they forget. Look at it _now_.... When one thinks of the Prejudices, and Intolerance; of all the _Righteousness_ that stands between us and a happier world, it drives one mad.... Have you walked through a slum lately? GWEN: No. JOHN: I did; yesterday; ... thousands of babies rolling about in filth; and you only see them outside, where at least there’s a square inch of open sky above them. Think of them inside. Whole families in one room. The mothers and fathers, growing brothers and sisters, and new-born babies; all together; day and night; in every city in the civilised world.... Think of it, for a moment ... _intimately_.... Good God! Talk about leading little children astray. A civilisation that tolerates it ought to have a millstone round its neck; ... as a matter of fact, it has; the thing itself is a millstone; dragging us down; fast. GWEN: How? JOHN: How! Why: if anybody has the quality to rise out of it, he gets on at his job, marries above him and doesn’t have children. The worst are pouring out children, the best are more or less barren.