How many more times? Between the seven years before that? Well, I would not want to say how many times; but at the time he was hanging around Aurora he was off and on. He would go away and hunt for a job and come back, go away and come back; that is the way he was. Was he drunk when you would see him around this variety show? Yes, we very seldom seen him sober. Mr. Sullivan: Prior to this controversy between the railroad and its employes could such a man as De Witt receive employment as an engineer; would you have employed such a man? (Objected to by Mr. Dawes.) Q. Would they employ a man who had been dismissed as being responsible for a wreck, as this man was? (Objected to by Mr. Dawes.) Commissioner Rinaker: Do you know why he was discharged? A. He was discharged for having a collision about half a mile east of Naperville station. You know that from your own knowledge? Yes; I was mixed up a little bit in it myself. I came near getting into trouble with it myself. Hector H. Hall being recalled, was examined by Commissioner Rogers, and testified as follows: Q. How long is it since this notice was given by De Witt's wife to the saloon-keepers not to give him liquor? A. I think it was on Thanksgiving day, or the day after. That is last year? Yes, sir. That was on Thanksgiving day? Thanksgiving day or the day after; I am not positive which. J. A. Murray, locomotive engineer of thirteen years' service, residing at Rock Island, testified that Frank Hamilton, Frank Horn, Joseph Roach, J. Logston, Harry Zimmerman and William Patterson, running engines on the C., B. & Q. R. R., were brakemen, conductors and baggagemen, respectively; that he was acquainted with them all for eight to ten years, and that they were inexperienced as engineers or firemen. Frank Hamilton, witness on behalf of the C., B. & Q. Railroad Company, testified: Q. Give your name in full? A. Frank Hamilton. What is your business? Formerly conductor until the 10th of last month; now I am running an engine. Conductor on the C., B. & Q.? Yes, sir; St. Louis division. How long have you been a railroad man? For the C., B. & Q. Company, running a train since November, 1880, with the exception of five months, up until the 10th of last month. Have you been examined as to the manipulation of an engine? To a certain extent. By whom? Mr. Wallace. Is Mr. Wallace here? Mr. Wallace is here. Cross-examination by Mr. Sullivan: Q. You never got any technical instruction as to the running of an engine in your life, did you? A. Explain that word, please. You never got any instruction in the shop from those who manufacture engines and are familiar with their detail? No, sir.