Have you known him since he was in the employ of the company; have you seen him since? I have seen him on my way through Plano; he worked at Plano for the Plano Manufacturing Company, and I see him there about in the neighborhood of a year ago; he struck me for a ride to Chicago. Mr. Dawes: I object to any specific instance of drunkenness a year ago. Mr. Sullivan: Was he drunk or sober? A. He was not sober. Did you ever see him sober? I don't think I did; not what I should call dead sober. You have known him eight years? I have known him fourteen years. Why did you refuse to give him a ride when he applied to you? Well, it was against the rules; and then he was too full of whisky to be a safe man to have around there. You haven't seen him since, then? I have not, except since he came back to work for the C., B. & Q. Acting as engineer? Yes, sir. Passenger or freight? Passenger. On what road? On the C., B. & Q., on the main line? Mr. Dawes, cross-examining: Did you regard that as a proper method of determining the qualifications of engineers? A. Yes, sir; it is well enough. Is this (handing witness a paper) an accurate copy of the protest of the Brotherhood? I will direct your attention to Article 22. I don't represent the Brotherhood; I am here as a witness. I will ask you whether you know as a matter of fact, Mr. Clark, whether Article 22 is a copy of a grievance presented by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers to the Burlington road? I did not present it. I understand you did not; you know, do you not? Mr. Sullivan: I object to all this as immaterial. Commissioner Rinaker: I do not regard that as cross-examination at present. Is that offered for the purpose of showing that the rule itself was not regarded as a proper one? Mr. Dawes: I want to ask this witness what his opinion is of this particular grievance. Mr. Sullivan: How often have you seen him in eight years? A. He laid around Aurora two or three years before he got a job any place. He lived around Aurora two or three years after he was discharged? Yes, sir. When he hung around Aurora for two or three years did you see him regularly? He hung around a variety saloon that used to be there in Aurora. Commissioner Rinaker: How often do you mean we shall understand you are stating you have seen this man drunk in the last eight or ten years? Commissioner Rogers: When was it he wanted to come up with you on the engine? A. As near as I can remember it was in the neighborhood of a year ago. Commissioner Rinaker: How many times have you seen him drunk? A. He was drunk at that time.