Q. Doctor, if I understood you correctly, you stated this morning that a medical experiment with fatal consequences is to be designated either as an execution or as a murder; is that what you said? A. I did not say that. Q. What did you say then? A. It was more or less as I quoted it, as I remember, I said that under the circumstances which surrounded the first death in high-altitude experiments at Dachau, which Dr. Romberg is alleged to have witnessed, Dr. Rascher killed the subject; that the death could be viewed only as an execution or as a murder; and if the subject were a volunteer, then his death could not be viewed as an execution. Q. Witness, in your opinion, is there a difference whether the experiments are to be traced back to the initiative of the experimenter himself, or whether they are ordered by some authoritative office of the state which also assumes the responsibility for them? A. Yes. There is a difference, but that difference does not pertain, in my opinion, to the moral responsibilities of the investigator toward his experimental subject. Q. I cannot understand that, Doctor. I can imagine that the state gives an experimenter the order, particularly during wartime, to carry out certain experiments, and that in peacetime, on his own initiative, the researcher would not carry out such experiments unless he was ordered to by the state. You must recognize this difference yourself. A. That does not carry over to the moral responsibility of the individual to his experimental subject. I do not believe that the state can assume the responsibility of ordering a scientist to kill people in order to obtain knowledge. Q. Witness, that is not the question. I am not interested in whether the state can order some one to murder; I am interested in the question whether, in your opinion, the state can order, let us say dangerous experiments, experiments in which perhaps fatalities may occur. In America, too, deaths occurred several times in experiments; what is your view on this? A. The state, as far as I know, in the United States of America has never ordered scientists to perform any experiment where death is likely to occur. Q. Doctor, I did not say where death was probable, I said where death is possible, and I ask you to answer the question I put to you. If deaths are probable, then you are correct, then it is murder. If deaths are possible, then I want to know what you say to that. And, let me remind you, Doctor, that even in the American Air Force deaths did occur; in other words, death was possible. A. Yes, I agree that it is possible for deaths to occur accidentally in experiments which are hazardous. As I said in my testimony under such conditions when they do occur, their cause is investigated very thoroughly as well as the circumstances surrounding the death. * * * * *