A. Sievers, as far as I remember, came to me in the year 1942 and told me very excitedly that Himmler in his desire to extend the Ahnenerbe Society had embarked on the thought of including experiments on human beings in the work of the Ahnenerbe Society. He said that he did not succeed in frustrating that. He said that he had no desire whatsoever to participate in these horrible acts and asked me what to do. At that time we considered this horrible situation very thoroughly and thought of what we could do. It was quite clear to us what the SS intended here, and it was questionable whether responsibility could be assumed for any such acts, whether it would be advisable to be the instrument of Himmler if he embarked on any such acts, measures where human beings were degraded to the level of insects. The following considerations proved to be decisive for us: If Sievers left, not one person, not one subject in these experiments would be saved. If Sievers stayed there as a technical secretary, he could throw sand into that machinery and would, perhaps, be in a position to save somebody. In addition, the entire plan and the entire overthrow of the Party stood or fell with Sievers staying at his post. The experiments on human beings were only part of this horrible Party system, and one had to concentrate on the decisive points in order finally to remove everything, and, as I have said before, there was no other way into the staff of the Reich Leader SS. We therefore concluded that if Sievers resigned because of that, it was sure that he would be eliminated and probably all the people he had ever entrusted with a research assignment, and everything that we had done so far would be lost if he left, and if anyone was to be saved at all, he could only be saved by Sievers remaining at his post. Q. If I have understood you correctly, Sievers at first wanted to resign from his position as Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe? A. Yes. That is correct. Q. Did Sievers approve of these arguments which you and your friends put forward in favor of his staying with the Reich Leader SS as the Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe? Did he do it immediately or only after trying to persuade him for some time? A. This took a number of days, because Sievers, according to his nature, was softer than many of us and did not want to agree with us. We finally had to appeal to his sense of duty and persuade him that he had to do it and that it was the only way. Q. Among other matters, it was considered that by Sievers remaining at his post, there would be a possibility of mitigating these horrible experiments?