A. The chance wasn’t very great but we were convinced that this would be the only way possible, if at all. Then it could only be done in that manner. If I may say so, this was such a horrible situation that we always had to come back to it and we were very lucky at least to have the hope of saving a number of people. Other opponents of the SS system have told me about similar dilemmas which were just as difficult, and where the alternative was yet more horrible, and where persons, according to my belief and knowledge, acted correctly. If the Tribunal would permit me I could relate a few almost incredible situations which were even worse. PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: In what connection are these narrations, Witness? WITNESS HIELSCHER: In connection with the question as to whether it was morally justifiable to enable Sievers to remain at his post. PRESIDING JUDGE BEALS: Such matters as that would not be material in this inquiry. * * * * * _CROSS-EXAMINATION_ * * * * * MR. HARDY: Now, what did Sievers ever tell you about the Sievers-Hirt skeleton collection? Did he ever tell you about that? WITNESS HIELSCHER: Yes. He told me that Himmler had ordered—as far as I know, it was in connection with Jewish commissars who were under this terrible execution order which was valid in the East—that some of them were to be selected and used for the skeleton collection. The order was from Himmler, as Sievers reported to me. Q. And did you know what they were going to do with these people? A. Yes. It was the same as in the experiments. There a danger of death was a possibility; here it was certain. Q. You knew, of course, that they were going to stand these people up, pick them out, select them according to size, take their anatomical measurements, then ship them to Natzweiler and at Natzweiler kill them, then deflesh them, then send the skeletons to the Strasbourg University for collection? And you knew that? A. Yes. Q. A fine thing for a resistance man to be involved in, isn’t it? A. The situation, as I have said repeatedly, was as follows: We made no distinction in the real evaluation of the skeleton collection and other experiments in which there was this so-called “volunteering” and in which the result was the same—in our eyes, they were the same thing. I should like to emphasize one more thing. Does one have the moral right to tolerate a lesser evil in order to prevent a greater evil? Q. Just a moment. Now in connection with the skeleton collection, do you further know that they dispensed with the idea of taking Jewish commissars but selected Jewish inmates of concentration camps?