(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.) Mr. BALL. I would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. And the elevators are shown here. And the witness has placed himself at point "Z" on Exhibit 487, which is near a pair of west windows. Now, you are oriented there, are you not? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. All right. When you were at "Z" were you able to see the stairwell? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Mr. BALL. Why? Mr. WILLIAMS. You could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. Those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. And they come out maybe 5 feet, even more than that, past the stairway. And that would block your view of the stairway from that point. Mr. BALL. Mark it in there with your pencil. Mr. WILLIAMS. These are the stairs. I would say the bookcase would come out like that. Mr. BALL. The shelf we will mark "WX", both ends of the shelf. How high is the shelf? Mr. WILLIAMS. Pretty high. Mr. BALL. Does it go to the ceiling? Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. But I am 6 feet, and they are way over me, I think. Mr. BALL. Now, could you see all of the elevators from there? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, by me being the tallest, I saw---- Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "Z"? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly. Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly. Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that? Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet. Mr. BALL. What did he do? Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator. Mr. BALL. Which elevator? Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator. Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him? Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not. Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet? Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it. Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it---- Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. Did you tell them that?