Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army. Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have. Mr. DULLES. I have one question. You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker. Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions? Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. It was just the time between the sound. Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third. Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple after the shot? Did you see the President hit? Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of jumping. Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions? Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon. (Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.) Afternoon Session TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m. Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen. Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later. You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you. Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also. Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct? Mr. BRENNAN. Right. Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan. Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure. Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean---- Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two. Mr. BALL. Let's identify. Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them. Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together? Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman. Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman? Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.