Mr. PIC. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this. Mr. JENNER. Your wife reminded you of that? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee. Mr. JENNER. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Mr. JENNER. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been? Mr. PIC. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him. Mr. JENNER. You found him to have--he was interested in that sort of thing? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked. Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished? Mr. PIC. Not until the knife pulling incident. Mr. JENNER. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion? Mr. PIC. I attempted to, sir. Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time? Mr. PIC. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter. Mr. JENNER. He would not. Mr. PIC. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me. Mr. JENNER. There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you? Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct. Mr. JENNER. It was a marked one? Mr. PIC. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so. Mr. JENNER. Would you do that? Mr. PIC. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came home from work. Mr. JENNER. They had moved out before you came home from work? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way." Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts. Mr. PIC. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me. Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers? Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. Mr. JENNER. What was your nickname? Mr. PIC. Pic.