Mr. TURNER. And, I was standing up at the front of point “4”, on the left side of the camera, which was right next to the column. Jack Beers from the Dallas Morning News, who took the picture before he was shot--not the picture after he shot him, was immediately--I was touching him with my left arm, and I had mentioned to Jack, I said, “Jack, when I swing around for them to load him into the truck up there, well, I’ll hit you on the knee, if--and would you get out of the way?” And Jack said, “Yes.” So--this all took place so quick from now on. And then after I got through talking with Jack, I was--Tom was trying to attract my attention. I happened to glance up and this was at the same time the car drove out of the--I’m not sure. I couldn’t--that right down where the ramp it hit--the---- Mr. HUBERT. Level part? Mr. TURNER. Level part. I saw Mr. Ruby coming in. Mr. HUBERT. Now, had you ever seen him before? Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I certainly hadn’t. Let me mark “10” as the point where I actually saw Mr. Ruby. Mr. HUBERT. Now, in order to get it right, would you look at the mockup first, and then place it. Mr. TURNER. I was right here [indicating], and he was somewhere in this locality when--it is beyond the second column. Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark a line, and mark it “A” and “B” straight across at the beginning on the right? Mr. TURNER. All right. Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have marked a line, having compared it with the mockup, and you have marked it “A-B”. Mr. TURNER. That is the beginning of the---- Mr. HUBERT. Of the rise? Mr. TURNER. That’s right. I might be a little off there. Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you saw Jack Ruby. You had not known him to be Jack Ruby at that time? Mr. TURNER. No; what set him off from other men was the hat he was wearing. Mr. HUBERT. What sort of hat was it? Mr. TURNER. I don’t know the technical name. Could you help me out? It was a felt hat, had a pretty large brim on it, and it was a--round on top, which you seldom see. Mr. HUBERT. Snap brim? Mr. TURNER. No; it wasn’t snap brim. It was just a wide brim, and like you say, I didn’t go that far. Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what color it was? Mr. TURNER. It seemed to be grey. Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe any other clothing? Mr. TURNER. Yes; he was, to my knowledge he was dressed in an overcoat, or long--it could have been a suit coat, but I didn’t notice. Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a fair look at his face? Mr. TURNER. At an angle that I do not recognize him now. He seemed to be much heavier then than when I saw him in the Ruby trial. Mr. HUBERT. Will you mark the position where you saw this man, marking it with the next number? Mr. TURNER. All right. Let’s see. “10.” Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that that man that you saw at position “10”, was Jack Ruby? Mr. TURNER. I certainly do. Mr. HUBERT. He was coming down the Main Street ramp at that time? Mr. TURNER. That’s right. Mr. HUBERT. He was moving?