[Sidenote: p. 59.] 4. For this reason it is impossible to establish the horoscope from the conception; nor can it be done from the bringing forth. For in the first place, it is very hard to say when the bringing forth is: whether it is when the child begins to incline towards the fresh air or when it projects a little, or when it is brought down altogether to the ground. But in none of these cases is it possible to define the time of birth accurately.[22] For from presence of mind and suitableness of body, and through preference of places and the expertness of the midwife and endless other causes, the time is not always the same when, the membranes being ruptured, the infant inclines forward, or when [Sidenote: p. 60.] it projects a little, or when it falls to the ground. But it is different with different women. Which, again, the Chaldæans being unable to measure definitely and accurately, they are prevented from determining as they should the hour of the bringing forth. That the Chaldæans, therefore, while asserting that they know the sign ascending at the time of birth, do not know it, is plain from the facts. And that there is no means either of unerringly observing the time,[23] is easy to be judged. For when they say that the person sitting by the woman in labour at the bringing forth signifies the same to the Chaldæan who is looking upon the stars from a high place by means of the gong,[24] and that this last gazing upon the heaven notes down the sign then rising, we shall show that as the bringing forth happens at no defined time,[25] it is not possible either to signify the same by the gong. For even if it be granted that the actual bringing forth can be ascertained, yet the time cannot be signified accurately. For the sound of the gong, being capable of divisions by perception into much and more time,[26] it happens that it is [Sidenote: p. 61.] carried (late) to the high place. And the proof of this is what is noticed when trees are felled a long way off.[27] For the sound of the stroke is heard a pretty long time after the fall of the axe, so as to reach the listener later. And from this cause it is impossible for the Chaldæans to obtain accurately the time of the rising sign and that which is in truth on the ascendant.[28] And indeed not only does more time pass after the birth before he who sits beside the woman in labour, strikes the gong, and again after the stroke before it is heard by him upon the high place, but also before he can look about and see in which sign is the moon and in which is each of the other stars. It seems inevitable then that there must be a great change in the disposition of the stars,[29] [from the movement of the Pole being whirled along with indescribable swiftness] before the hour of him who has been born as it is seen in heaven can be observed carefully.[30]