At this turn of the dialogue, when the definition given by Simonides has just been refuted, Thrasymachus breaks in, and takes up the conversation with Sokrates. He is depicted as angry, self-confident to excess, and coarse in his manners even to the length of insult. The portrait given of him is memorable for its dramatic vivacity, and is calculated to present in an odious point of view the doctrines which he advances: like the personal deformities which Homer heaps upon Thersites in the Iliad.[12] But how far it is a copy of the real man, we have no evidence to inform us. [Footnote 12: Homer, Iliad B 216. Respecting Thrasymachus the reader should compare Spengel--[Greek: Sunagôgê\ Technô=n]--pp. 94-98: which abates the odium inspired by this picture in the Republic.] [Side-note: Violence of Thrasymachus--Subdued manner of Sokrates--Conditions of useful colloquy.] In the contrast between Sokrates and Thrasymachus, Plato gives valuable hints as to the conditions of instructive colloquy. "What nonsense is all this!" (exclaims Thrasymachus). "Do not content yourself with asking questions, Sokrates, which you know is much easier than answering: but tell us yourself what Justice is: give us a plain answer: do not tell us that it is what is right--or profitable--or for our interest--or gainful--or advantageous: for I will not listen to any trash like this." "Be not so harsh with us, Thrasymachus" (replies Sokrates, in a subdued tone). "If we have taken the wrong course of inquiry, it is against our own will. You ought to feel pity for us rather than anger." "I thought" (rejoined Thrasymachus, with a scornful laugh) "that you would have recourse to your usual pretence of ignorance, and would decline answering." _S._--How can I possibly answer, when you prescribe beforehand what I am to say or not to say? If you ask men--How much is twelve? and at the same time say--Don't tell me that it is twice six, or three times four, or four times three--how can any man answer your question? _T._--As if the two cases were similar! _S._--Why not similar? But even though they be not similar, yet if the respondent thinks them so, how can he help answering according as the matter appears to him, whether we forbid him or not? _T._--Is that what you intend to do? Are you going to give me one of those answers which I forbade? _S._--Very likely I may, if on consideration it appears to me the proper answer.[13] _T._--What will you say if I show you another answer better than all of them? What penalty will you then impose upon yourself? _S._--What penalty?--why, that which properly falls upon the ignorant. It is their proper fate to learn from men wiser than themselves: that is the penalty which I am prepared for.[14]