_A._ Nay; I do not fear them much, _for they said that there never was a wise man_. Therefore I am not at all ashamed not to be wise, for I know that as yet I am not wise; but if I ever become as wise as they, then I will do as they teach, _until I can say that I know without doubt what I seem to myself to know_. _R._ I do not object at all to thy doing so. But thou sayest thou knowest about the line _which was painted on the ball on which thou learnedst the revolution of this heaven_; I would know whether thou also knowest about the ball _on which the line is drawn_. _A._ Yea; I know both. _No man can mistake that._ _R._ Didst thou learn with the eyes or with the mind? _A._ With both: first with the eyes, then with the mind. The eyes brought me to the understanding; but after I had perceived it, I left off looking with the eyes, and reflected, _for it seemed to me that I could contemplate much more of it than I could see, after the eyes had fixed it in my mind. Just so a ship bringeth one over the sea; when he cometh ashore, he letteth the ship stand, for it seemeth to him that he can travel more easily without it than with it._ However, it seemeth easier to me to travel by skiff on dry land than to learn any science with the eyes, but without the reason--though the eyes must at times give aid. _R._ _Therefore thou must needs look rightly with the eyes of the mind to God, just as the ship's anchor-cable is stretched direct from the ship to the anchor, and fasten the eyes of thy mind on God, just as the anchor is fastened in the earth. Though the ship be out among the sea-billows, it will remain sound and unbroken if the cable holdeth, since one end of it is fast to the earth and the other to the ship._ [Sidenote: 22.11--24.7] _A._ _What is that which thou callest the mind's eyes?_ _R._ _Reason, in addition to other virtues._ _A._ _What are the other virtues?_ _R._ _Wisdom, and humility, and honor, and moderation, and righteousness, and mercy, and prudence, and constancy, and benevolence, and chastity, and abstinence. With these anchors thou art able to fasten to God the cable that shall hold the ship of thy mind._ _A._ _May the Lord God make me entirely as thou teachest me [to be]. I would if I could, but I can not understand how I shall be able to obtain these anchors, or how I shall fasten them, except thou teach it to me more clearly._ _R._ _I could teach thee, but I ought first to ask thee how many of this world's lusts thou hast renounced for God. After thou hast told me that, then I can say to thee without any doubt that thou hast obtained so many of the anchors as thou hast renounced the lusts of the world._ _A._ _How can I forsake that which I know and am familiar with, and have been used to from childhood, and love that which is unknown to me except by hearsay? Howbeit, I feel sure that if I knew what thou sayest about me as certainly as what I here see for myself, I would love that, and despise this._