Q. Did you advise him to do so or how did it come about? There had to be some special reason, since you were both opponents of this political party. A. That was the first time, aside from 1923, when the NSDAP was talked about, and it was useful to know what was going on in this growing machine—were there any people of good will within the machine, what were the leaders doing, what plans were being made, what organization was being set up. Q. Then first of all you wanted to find out what intentions the NSDAP had? A. Yes, and specifically in the youth work, because that had to be the most important in the long run. Q. Now, in 1931 Sievers resigned from the NSDAP again; did he do that with your knowledge? A. Yes. Q. On your orders? A. Yes, one might say that. We discussed it, and I considered it the thing to do. Q. Now, why should he suddenly leave the Party since he had been sent into the Party with the definite purpose of getting information? A. He had found out what he was to find out, the nature and the make-up, especially of the youth organization. It was just as inferior as we had thought, and even at that time it was so corrupt that without any further plan—and we had no plan at the time—without any further plan it was not necessary to have him continue. Q. Now, in the year 1933, Sievers, as the Tribunal has already been told, again joined the NSDAP; was this also done on your behalf? A. Yes. At that time we were already a thoroughly organized organization. We were already asking for volunteers, who were willing and who were capable of working up in the sense of the Trojan Horse. Sievers seemed suitable, and he was willing. Q. Were you able to get him any position within the Party? A. No. I was not able to help him to obtain any position, and in the second place I had no intention of telling the individual persons whom I trusted, in detail, what they were to do. Q. Then it was up to the skill of the individual to get into a position from which he would be able to carry out the assignment which you gave him? A. Yes. Q. And how did Sievers obtain this position? A. He got into this with Hermann Wirth in the Ahnenerbe. Q. Who was Hermann Wirth? A. Hermann Wirth was a rather crazy student of pre-history, who had excellent material and terrible concepts. Q. Was Wirth already in contact with the Ahnenerbe at that time? A. As far as I know he was one of the founders. Q. Then, as you say, Sievers got in contact with Wirth, and through Wirth he got into the Ahnenerbe? A. Yes. He was there from 1935 on as Reich Business Manager. Q. Now, did you give Sievers any specific assignment in the spirit of your movement?