_Chær._ You yourselves, Gorgias and Socrates, hear the noise these men make, from their anxiety to hear, if you say any thing. For my part, may I never have so much business, as to be obliged to leave such a discussion and so conducted, from having any thing else more important to do. 32. _Cal._ By the gods, Chærephon, and I too, though I have been present at many conferences, know not whether I have ever been so delighted as now; so that you will gratify me much, should you even be willing to continue the discussion throughout the whole day. _Socr._ There is no obstacle on my side, Callicles, if only Gorgias is willing. _Gorg._ After this, Socrates, it would be shameful in me not to be willing, especially as I myself announced that any one might ask what he pleased. But, if it is agreeable to the company, continue the discussion, and ask any question you please. _Socr._ Hear then, Gorgias, what I wonder at in what you said. For, perhaps, you spoke correctly, and I did not rightly apprehend you. You say that you can make any one a rhetorician, who is willing to be instructed by you? _Gorg._ Yes. _Socr._ So that he can speak persuasively on any subject to the multitude, not teaching, but persuading? _Gorg._ Exactly so. _Socr._ You said too, that a rhetorician is able to speak more persuasively than a physician, on the subject of health. _Gorg._ I did say so, at least to a multitude. _Socr._ Does not, then, this expression “to a multitude” mean to the ignorant? for, surely, among the well-informed he will not be better able to persuade than the physician. _Gorg._ You say truly. 33. _Socr._ If then he shall be better able to persuade than the physician, he is better able to persuade than one who possesses knowledge? _Gorg._ Certainly. _Socr._ Although he is not a physician? is it not so? _Gorg._ Yes. _Socr._ But he who is not a physician must, surely, be unskilled in those things in which a physician is skilled. _Gorg._ Clearly so. _Socr._ He, therefore, who is ignorant will be more capable than one who possesses knowledge of persuading the ignorant, since a rhetorician is better able to persuade than a physician. Is this the result, or something else? _Gorg._ That is the result in this instance. _Socr._ The case therefore is the same as concerns a rhetorician and rhetoric with respect to all other arts: I mean, there is no need for it to know the subjects themselves, how they are circumstanced, but only to discover some means of persuasion, so as to appear to the ignorant to know more than those who possess knowledge. _Gorg._ Is it not a great advantage, Socrates, without having other arts, but this one only, to be in no respect inferior to artificers?